Preview 8 Discussion

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Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Orinks » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Making this topic to discuss Preview 8.

I made a video this time, because Sarah isn't feeling too good right now. In summary, here are the problems I've found that are explained and shown in the video.

1. The new alt key for the menu is nice, but it does not check whether alt is pressed and held. This prevents common keyboard shortcuts such as Alt+tab to be pressed in the Ideal Flight window.
2. With NVDA at least, there are still some tabbing issues. When I first go into the flight generator and mess around in the video, unknown to me was that the accessibility was set to narrator, not NVDA. It was actually set on audo, but perhaps NVDA specifically would make a difference. It did not. The tabbing and shift+tabbing is much, much better than 07. At least it doesn't get stuck now! I think this may be one of the disadvantages of creating that codebase hook for screen readers that you created, rather than using standards already created, but I will take this much more over the 07 problems. At least we can shift tab back if it tends to skip over a lot of stuff.
3. The other settings area as far as tabbing was just bad. I had to use NVDA's mouse commands to get to more settings, and then when I remembered that settings was alt+M, well, I couldn't press it because of the menu bug stated above. NVDA's mouse commands reads it as though we were on the stable build without accessible controls which I find odd.

4. I couldn't find this new speech setting for essentially Ideal Flight's own screen reader for flight data and other info as far as voice selection, rate, etc. Does it read anything currently or just the groundwork is there for it?


I do like the tabbing between the briefing and the pilot pages on the homepage, it's a nice little touch, but I'm not sure if screen readers are reading everything there, even though we primarily use the briefing to review all of that.

This video doesn't just focus on Ideal Flight preview 8, but I do cover it at the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRgMxyRVJUI
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:54 pm

1. The menu pops up and down holding alt key down prevents selecting the keys - check! You can select the keyed buttons without holding tab down.

2. No idea what that problem is. Restart NVDA that's usually the culprit. I have found all the time with NVDA I get keys unusable and not been able to undo it without a restart. Also it might lock up when I scroll a page and click around too fast, not talking about IF here.

3. What do you mean exactly tabbing just bad? Do you mean it's not working at all or is it acting up in a strange way or what? Can't you get the more settings page? I can without issue. So I need to replicate that.

4. You misread me I said I have been developing a speech module and I was clear that it is not included yet. All I can say is that those texts on the pages are what the reader reads so you can be sure they read it all.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:58 pm

...I'm just stopping NVDA now because it's interrupting the keyboard.

"I think this may be one of the disadvantages of creating that codebase hook for screen readers that you created, rather than using standards already created, but I will take this much more over the 07 problems."


Ideal Flight uses THE STANDARDS presented in Windows and goes further than any other apps you use.

I wish you would not attempt to outguess the professionals.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:01 pm

...on top of that I have to remind you that you had the privilege of getting a nowhere near finished solution to introducing accessibility to a big app. That's why you had problems thats because it's not finished.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:21 pm

What IF does is interpret the screen reader operating and do things to help it do what it wants. So for example NVDA and Narrator work on the principle of the component creation and the tab order. Each has its own interpretation so they read things slightly differently. So IF sees the reader and adjusts the creation and Tab order to suit the reader better. Also Ideal Flight adds in the possibility of tabbing into and out of disabled controls without leaving the reader to interpret them. All this is done with the use the standard controls and interfaces of Windows. The difference is that Ideal Flight goes a lot further than most apps to help those readers get things right.

Now I need some constructive moves toward the goals required. For example, how is it best to arrange the menu key, should it not pop up the menu and leave it to escape? Escape undoes the current edit, then exits the page on the next press, at the home page pops up the menu does not go back to start page.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Recapping on the development process up to Preview 08. We got up to 07 with "a way of working" sorted out, more or less, plus most text descriptions in place. But by no means a working setup. With 2500 lines of text, 200 controls, and four versions all with subtle differences, what you saw before is just that with a percentage unfinished controls that had particular requirements, and a good bunch of places whereby some message had been lost, and some very small errors can lead to massive problems.

So now we are looking for those few places left undone or unfinished. The mistakes like placing the wrong description to a control, and also the use of a control or function that results in a fail of some sort.

Jordan reported that he had an exception but without detail. So I would need to know exactly at what stage in the progression of using the program the fault happened. The flight log also contains the progress of operations within the application as well as the flight. So it can be seen in the log perhaps at which stage the error happened.

The popup menu reappearing on key holding down, can be dealt with easy enough hopefully the way the ALT (Menu) key and Tab keys work is satisfactory. There are several ways to do it.

So at the moment the Escape key undoes any current Edit only if User focus is inside a control, then moves back to home page with next Escape press. The ALT key or Menu key pops up the menu then the Main menu then returns. This key is not needed to skip to a button when outside an editable control.

Many thanks for the input. There's plenty to do yet and also including the speech unit will be exciting, I expect to provide a popup with a selection of what can be done that can be changed during the flight.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Orinks » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:07 am

What I mean about other settings is that I'm having the same tabbing issues as we all did with 07. Also, as demonstrated in the video, I cannot press alt+M to get to more settings because the menu pops up immediately when pressing alt and then hitting M quickly.

Shift tabbing seems to work but i cannot tab through it. It should be set on NVDA because that's what i set it to last, but it was set on Narrator when I first opened 08, so checking that as I type this.

Well damn. I go into the dialogue and shift tab to more settings, press space, and NVDA ackowledges that I pressed the button but the dialog doesn't come up. If I open other settings and tab, it goes to the okay button which should not be the case.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:06 am

I'm not sure what you are doing there? As you know at the moment you cant hold down alt so that means you get the same problem whenever you try to hold down alt. Even so, until that is fixed you don't need to hold down Alt so why repeat the whole point?

Why are you setting to NVDA or anything, that's in case of other readers. Can you just make settings to auto?

Now can you describe the problems you have tabbing? And where?
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:13 am

So I tabbed to More Settings and pressed space and return both these buttons do the act of pressing the button. Until the Alt button is fixed the 'M' key may or may not work the button depending simply on what state the ALT menu is in. Since the ALT menu key runs through what is known as the ALT Menu loop. Unfortunately this seems like you are misinterpreting Windows keyboard behaviour.
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Re: Preview 8 Discussion

Postby Steve Waite » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:22 am

The popup menu must be available at all time but the conflict of Escape or Alt to pop it up arises.
What I have been experimenting with is to press Control + Alt to popup the menu. Escape key works the popup menu when at the Start or Home page otherwise backs out of a settings page.

Going into checkbox pages auto move you onto the last visited or first item in the checkbox list.
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